I am still amazed that we get something like Al-Jazeera English free-to-
air here in NZ. Sure, they have their biases (e.g. Qatar domestic
matters), but they have an amazingly diverse crew of worldwide
correspondents, including quite a few NZers.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>I am still amazed that we get something like Al-Jazeera English free-to-
>air here in NZ. Sure, they have their biases (e.g. Qatar domestic
>matters), but they have an amazingly diverse crew of worldwide
>correspondents, including quite a few NZers.
Haven't watched them since they took the stance of Hamas good ,
Israel bad .

On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 09:17:09 +1300, Mutley wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>I am still amazed that we get something like Al-Jazeera English free-to-
>>air here in NZ. Sure, they have their biases (e.g. Qatar domestic
>>matters), but they have an amazingly diverse crew of worldwide
>>correspondents, including quite a few NZers.
>
> Haven't watched them since they took the stance of Hamas good ,
> Israel bad .

It is true that Hamas launched a brutal attack on Israeli civilians (and
soldiers) on October 7, such that it was hard to see how that could be
overshadowed by anything worse. Yet that is exactly what Israel has
managed to achieve in the unremitting brutality of its destruction of Gaza
and its populace in the days since then.

See what I did there? It’s called “nuance”. And AlJ’s reporting has had a
lot of that.

Also I give respect to our local TV news, for also making clear the extent
of the carnage in Gaza. Apparently that’s not something very common in
certain quarters of the Western media, like in the US.

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>. Yet that is exactly what Israel has
>managed to achieve in the unremitting brutality of its destruction of Gaza

Perhaps you don't understand what "war" is -- try looking it up in the
dictionary. I suppose you think that after the attack on Pearl
Harbour, the USA should simply have sunk an equivalent weight of
Japanese shipping, and called it evens.

>See what I did there? It’s called “nuance”. And AlJ’s reporting has had a
>lot of that.

You are so clever -- not. At least try not to be a self-parody.

On 2023-12-31, Willy Nilly <wn@qwert.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>. Yet that is exactly what Israel has
>>managed to achieve in the unremitting brutality of its destruction of Gaza
>
> Perhaps you don't understand what "war" is -- try looking it up in the
> dictionary. I suppose you think that after the attack on Pearl
> Harbour, the USA should simply have sunk an equivalent weight of
> Japanese shipping, and called it evens.

However the Japanese did not attack civilians. They went after the battle
ships in the harbour.

In todays wars, while civilians do get caught up in the war it is not
considered okay to blast the area where the enemy are hiding and not have
any consideration as to the numbers of civilians killed.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

>
>>See what I did there? It’s called “nuance”. And AlJ’s reporting has had a
>>lot of that.
>
> You are so clever -- not. At least try not to be a self-parody.
>

On 1 Jan 2024 03:39:23 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

>On 2023-12-31, Willy Nilly <wn@qwert.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>. Yet that is exactly what Israel has
>>>managed to achieve in the unremitting brutality of its destruction of Gaza
>>
>> Perhaps you don't understand what "war" is -- try looking it up in the
>> dictionary. I suppose you think that after the attack on Pearl
>> Harbour, the USA should simply have sunk an equivalent weight of
>> Japanese shipping, and called it evens.
>
>However the Japanese did not attack civilians. They went after the battle
>ships in the harbour.
>
>In todays wars, while civilians do get caught up in the war it is not
>considered okay to blast the area where the enemy are hiding and not have
>any consideration as to the numbers of civilians killed.
>
>Two wrongs do not make a right.

And there are a lot of wrongs and very little right about that war:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/505875/israeli-minister-repeats-call-for-palestinians-to-leave-gaza

>
>
>>
>>>See what I did there? It’s called “nuance”. And AlJ’s reporting has had a
>>>lot of that.
>>
>> You are so clever -- not. At least try not to be a self-parody.
>>

On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 17:22:24 +1300, Rich80105 wrote:

> And there are a lot of wrongs and very little right about that war:
> https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/505875/israeli-minister-repeats-call-
for-palestinians-to-leave-gaza

Netanyahu and his far-rightists are no longer shy about admitting their
intentions with respect to evicting or exterminating Palestinians and
stealing their land.

A lot of these statements will make compelling evidence in a future war
crimes trial.

On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 04:43:44 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 17:22:24 +1300, Rich80105 wrote:
>
>> And there are a lot of wrongs and very little right about that war:
>> https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/505875/israeli-minister-repeats-call-
>for-palestinians-to-leave-gaza
>
>Netanyahu and his far-rightists are no longer shy about admitting their
>intentions with respect to evicting or exterminating Palestinians and
>stealing their land.
>
>A lot of these statements will make compelling evidence in a future war
>crimes trial.

Hamas have never been shy about their intentions for Israel, which
calls for the total extermination of the Jews, same as like the Nazis.
It's no secret; read their charter. When the Jews vowed "never again",
they weren't kidding.

Bill.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 18:15:20 +1300, BR wrote:

> Hamas have never been shy about their intentions for Israel, which calls
> for the total extermination of the Jews, same as like the Nazis.
> It's no secret; read their charter.

Which version? Also have you read the Likud charter? The one that says
“between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty”?

On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 05:19:48 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 18:15:20 +1300, BR wrote:
>
>> Hamas have never been shy about their intentions for Israel, which calls
>> for the total extermination of the Jews, same as like the Nazis.
>> It's no secret; read their charter.
>
>Which version? Also have you read the Likud charter? The one that says
>“between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty”?
Not addressing the issue of Al-Jazeera, but interesting on the Israeli
/ Palestine conflict:
https://www.kiwipolitico.com/2023/12/further-thoughts-on-a-couple-of-things-near-and-far/

On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 05:19:48 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 18:15:20 +1300, BR wrote:
>
>> Hamas have never been shy about their intentions for Israel, which calls
>> for the total extermination of the Jews, same as like the Nazis.
>> It's no secret; read their charter.
>
>Which version? Also have you read the Likud charter? The one that says
>“between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty”?

You talk about that as if it was a bad thing. The greater Israeli
sovereignty there is, the more freedom there will be under that
sovereignty. Israel is a democracy, the only one in that part of the
world.

If Israel did to Hamas what Hamas would like to do to Israel, the Gaza
strip would be replaced by a hole in the gound.

If Hamas were to succeed in their stated intent and exterminate all
the Jews, all the shaky alliances formed against Israel between the
various tribal and religious groups would collapse. Israel's land,
wealth and prosperity would be plundered as these diverse factions
fight over the spoils, including the nukes. Can you see where this is
going?

Bill.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 09:20:43 +1300, BR wrote:

> You talk about that as if it was a bad thing.

So it’s OK if Israel does it, but not OK if Palestine does it?

> The greater Israeli sovereignty there is, the more freedom there will be
> under that sovereignty. Israel is a democracy, the only one in that part
> of the world.

It is a Jewish state, not a democratic state. Democracy has to be secular,
not based on any religion or ethnicity.

And democratic states do not subject people to arbitrary arrest,
detention, torture and general harassment.

> If Israel did to Hamas what Hamas would like to do to Israel, the Gaza
> strip would be replaced by a hole in the gound.

They’re already part of the way to achieving that.

> If Hamas were to succeed in their stated intent and exterminate all the
> Jews ...

Feel free to point out where that is currently part of their stated
intent. And how you reconcile that with their actions in returning at
least some Jewish hostages unharmed and unexterminated†, and their stated
intent to return more, if they’re allowed to.

†Except the ones who were exterminated by their own side.

> Israel's land, wealth and prosperity would be plundered ...

Seems like the current widespread military callups are not exactly doing
wonders for Israel’s economy as it is.

> Can you see where this is going?

Let’s just say, Netanyahu and his co-massacrists keep talking about a “day
after Hamas”, but I suspect that the “day after Netanyahu” will come
first.

On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 09:20:43 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:

>On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 05:19:48 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
><ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 18:15:20 +1300, BR wrote:
>>
>>> Hamas have never been shy about their intentions for Israel, which calls
>>> for the total extermination of the Jews, same as like the Nazis.
>>> It's no secret; read their charter.
>>
>>Which version? Also have you read the Likud charter? The one that says
>>“between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty”?
>
>You talk about that as if it was a bad thing. The greater Israeli
>sovereignty there is, the more freedom there will be under that
>sovereignty. Israel is a democracy, the only one in that part of the
>world.
>
>If Israel did to Hamas what Hamas would like to do to Israel, the Gaza
>strip would be replaced by a hole in the gound.
>
>If Hamas were to succeed in their stated intent and exterminate all
>the Jews, all the shaky alliances formed against Israel between the
>various tribal and religious groups would collapse. Israel's land,
>wealth and prosperity would be plundered as these diverse factions
>fight over the spoils, including the nukes. Can you see where this is
>going?
>
>Bill.

No I cannot, Bill. Your conjecture is based on big conjectures - sadly
for all those affected.

The partition of the “Holy Land” turns out to have been as successful
as that of Ireland, where religious wars were also a problem for so
long. It does however demonstrate the importance we can place on
avoiding such religious and racist bigotry in our own country, and
hope that though our example our diplomatic efforts to save lives on
all sides of such conflicts can prevent bloodshed as soon as possible.

On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 11:12:19 +1300, Rich80105 wrote:

> It does however demonstrate the importance we can place on avoiding such
> religious and racist bigotry in our own country ...

“The greatest tragedy in human history may have been the hijacking of
morality by religion.”
-- Arthur C Clarke

I think you should feel free to believe in whatever sky fairy you want.
But when you start claiming justification from your sky fairy for your
doctrines of right and wrong, and saying things like “my god is the only
true god, all other gods are false” ... that’s when the trouble starts.

AL FINKLESTEIN JEWZEERA . . .
WILL NOT TELL YOU OR THEIR AUDIENCE THAT THE VAXXED,
WILL SHORTLY DIE -- TURBO CANCER -- MYOCARDITIS -- HYDRA
SPIDER PARASITE INJECTED AND LIVING IN THEIR BODIES --
CONTROLLING THEIR EMOTIONS, ETC. -- THE VAXXED PAAKEHAA
HERE IN THIS NEWSGROUP -- NO DIFFERENT FROM FAKE CRIMINAL
STORE FRONTS TO THE 'THEY LIVE' -- 'INVASION OF THE BODY
SNATCHER' -- PATHETIC PAAKEHAA INFECTED AND SPREADING
THE SPIKE PROTEINS -- ETC.

On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 21:29:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 09:20:43 +1300, BR wrote:
>
>> You talk about that as if it was a bad thing.
>
>So it’s OK if Israel does it, but not OK if Palestine does it?

If you had a choice between being ruled by an Israeli government or
any other government in the region, what would you choose? Palestine
is not and has never been a country. None of the surrounding countries
want anything to do with these "Palestinians", many of whom have been
kicked out of those countries because they won't put up with them,
preferring instead to make them Israel's problem.
>
>> The greater Israeli sovereignty there is, the more freedom there will be
>> under that sovereignty. Israel is a democracy, the only one in that part
>> of the world.
>
>It is a Jewish state, not a democratic state.

Israel is the only functioning democracy in that part of the world.

>Democracy has to be secular,

None of the surrounding Muslim governments are secular, so why pick on
Israel?

>not based on any religion or ethnicity.

There are Muslims in the Jewish Knesset.

The people living in Gaza had an opportunity to form their own
democracy but they blew it when they elected Hamas in 2005. Big
mistake. However most of them are Muslims who have been taught to hate
Jews from an early age, so no surprises there.

>And democratic states do not subject people to arbitrary arrest,
>detention, torture and general harassment.

Israel is in a war fighting for it's survival. When a country is at
war, the only thing that matters is winning. The welfare of the
enemy's citizens should not impede that mission. However, unlike
Hamas, killing civillians should not be the overriding objective, but
if they get in the way then too bad. Dictatorships like Hamas have no
problem placing their own citizens in the crossfire so that outfits
like Al Jazzera can whip up anti-Israel sentiment around the world.
Hamas alone are to blame for the suffering of the people of Gaza, but
if they really have the support of the majority of Gaza residents,
then the Gazans are the architects of their own misfortune.

>> If Israel did to Hamas what Hamas would like to do to Israel, the Gaza
>> strip would be replaced by a hole in the gound.
>
>They’re already part of the way to achieving that.

Hamas could stop the destruction at once by laying down their arms and
surrendering.

>> If Hamas were to succeed in their stated intent and exterminate all the
>> Jews ...
>
>Feel free to point out where that is currently part of their stated
>intent.

Go and read the Hamas charter. It's no secret and is easily accessible
online.

>And how you reconcile that with their actions in returning at
>least some Jewish hostages unharmed and unexterminated†, and their stated
>intent to return more, if they’re allowed to.

So why don't they just do it?

>†Except the ones who were exterminated by their own side.

Are you claiming that Israel deliberately murdered its own citizens?

>> Israel's land, wealth and prosperity would be plundered ...
>
>Seems like the current widespread military callups are not exactly doing
>wonders for Israel’s economy as it is.

War is expensive and it is brutal. Israel did not start this conflict.
What should they do, just roll over and take it?

>> Can you see where this is going?
>
>Let’s just say, Netanyahu and his co-massacrists keep talking about a “day
>after Hamas”, but I suspect that the “day after Netanyahu” will come
>first.

Netanyahu might well be defeated in the next election; that is the
nature of a democracy. Gaza is run by brutal dictators and terrorists
whose top brass live in luxury in Qatar hotels. They will never
relinquish power and go quietly. They must be stopped.

Bill.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 08:37:20 +1300, BR wrote:

> If you had a choice between being ruled by an Israeli government or any
> other government in the region, what would you choose?

Given that Israel would treat me about as badly as any of the others?
Really??

> Palestine is not and has never been a country. None of the surrounding
> countries want anything to do with these "Palestinians" ...

You frame it in such a bizarre way, as though Palestine’s neighbours would
welcome its people being forced out of their own homes and land and onto
theirs. We have a term for what is happening here: it’s called “ethnic
cleansing”.

> On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 21:29:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>It is a Jewish state, not a democratic state.
>
> Israel is the only functioning democracy in that part of the world.

Tell that to its Arab citizens, and to Palestinians living under its
occupation. They don’t get to enjoy much, if any, of this “democracy”.

(This one law for one group, a different law for a different group is the
essence of “apartheid”.)

>>Democracy has to be secular,
>
> None of the surrounding Muslim governments are secular, so why pick on
> Israel?

Because you said it: it claims to be the only “democracy” in the region.

> There are Muslims in the Jewish Knesset.

You mean the ones who were liable to get expelled?

> The people living in Gaza had an opportunity to form their own democracy
> but they blew it when they elected Hamas in 2005. Big mistake.

Hamas won in a democratic election, like it or not. That was their choice
at the time. You claim to be a “democracy”, yet you don’t seem to be so
keen when others try to practise “democracy”.

> However most of them are Muslims who have been taught to hate Jews from
> an early age, so no surprises there.

You use their hatred of you as an excuse to inculcate more hatred in them.
They use your hatred of them to inculcate more hatred in you. How long do
you think this can go on?

>>And democratic states do not subject people to arbitrary arrest,
>>detention, torture and general harassment.
>
> Israel is in a war fighting for it's survival. When a country is at war,
> the only thing that matters is winning. The welfare of the enemy's
> citizens should not impede that mission.

“Citizens” of what? Just a little further back, you were claiming that
“Palestine is not and has never been a country”. So what “country” is it,
whose “citizens” are you fighting against?

> Hamas could stop the destruction at once by laying down their arms and
> surrendering.

We saw what happened to unarmed people who tried to do that in Gaza: the
Israeli soldiers shot them and killed them without a second thought. These
weren’t even Palestinians, remember: they were Israeli hostages who had
managed to free themselves.

So this already proves the point, as though there was any doubt: the idea
that Israel is not deliberately setting out to kill civilians is just
nonsense.

>>Feel free to point out where that is currently part of their stated
>>intent.
>
> Go and read the Hamas charter. It's no secret and is easily accessible
> online.

There are two versions of that. Let’s just say, the current one doesn’t
seem to be quite as strident on that point as the position of some parties
in the current Israeli government.

>> Except the ones who were exterminated by their own side.
>
> Are you claiming that Israel deliberately murdered its own citizens?

Yes. Besides the above case, there was an incident recently in the West
Bank as well, where an armed Israeli tried to help with a fight against
some Palestinians, and got killed by his own side for his efforts.

> War is expensive and it is brutal. Israel did not start this conflict.
> What should they do, just roll over and take it?

At some point they have to recognize that their adversary has its own
right to exist.

On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 08:37:20 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:

>On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 21:29:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
><ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 09:20:43 +1300, BR wrote:
>>
>>> You talk about that as if it was a bad thing.
>>
>>So it’s OK if Israel does it, but not OK if Palestine does it?
>
>If you had a choice between being ruled by an Israeli government or
>any other government in the region, what would you choose? Palestine
>is not and has never been a country. None of the surrounding countries
>want anything to do with these "Palestinians", many of whom have been
>kicked out of those countries because they won't put up with them,
>preferring instead to make them Israel's problem.
>>
>>> The greater Israeli sovereignty there is, the more freedom there will be
>>> under that sovereignty. Israel is a democracy, the only one in that part
>>> of the world.
>>
>>It is a Jewish state, not a democratic state.
>
>Israel is the only functioning democracy in that part of the world.

Democracy is not a term with a single interpretation:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/12/israel-protests-judicial-curbs-supreme-court-challenge

Look at the land distribution of Israel:
https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/132121

and then of New Zealand:
https://teara.govt.nz/en/map/17888/maori-land-in-the-north-island-1860-1939

(I presume there is an equivalent map for the South Island, but could
not find it quickly)

Being a Democracy is not a guarantee that all will be able to vote, or
that each vote has the same effect, or that a country will not
discriminate against minority groups, or of Freedom, however defined.

>
>>Democracy has to be secular,
No it doesn't.

>None of the surrounding Muslim governments are secular, so why pick on
>Israel?
>
>>not based on any religion or ethnicity.
>
>There are Muslims in the Jewish Knesset.
>
>The people living in Gaza had an opportunity to form their own
>democracy but they blew it when they elected Hamas in 2005. Big
>mistake. However most of them are Muslims who have been taught to hate
>Jews from an early age, so no surprises there.
>
>>And democratic states do not subject people to arbitrary arrest,
>>detention, torture and general harassment.

A shining example being the USA? Remember the racism against Black
people, remember prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. Remember the power of
elected small town Sheriffs?

>Israel is in a war fighting for it's survival. When a country is at
>war, the only thing that matters is winning. The welfare of the
>enemy's citizens should not impede that mission. However, unlike
>Hamas, killing civillians should not be the overriding objective, but
>if they get in the way then too bad. Dictatorships like Hamas have no
>problem placing their own citizens in the crossfire so that outfits
>like Al Jazzera can whip up anti-Israel sentiment around the world.
>Hamas alone are to blame for the suffering of the people of Gaza, but
>if they really have the support of the majority of Gaza residents,
>then the Gazans are the architects of their own misfortune.

With every new government there will be a group of people who will be
disappointed and surprised by what a new Government does - here in New
Zealand for example very few would have been aware before the new
NAct1st government was formed of the NZ First policy to reverse a law
that was moving towards making New Zealand smoke-free.

>>> If Israel did to Hamas what Hamas would like to do to Israel, the Gaza
>>> strip would be replaced by a hole in the gound.
>>
>>They’re already part of the way to achieving that.
>
>Hamas could stop the destruction at once by laying down their arms and
>surrendering.
>
>>> If Hamas were to succeed in their stated intent and exterminate all the
>>> Jews ...
>>
>>Feel free to point out where that is currently part of their stated
>>intent.
>
>Go and read the Hamas charter. It's no secret and is easily accessible
>online.
>
>>And how you reconcile that with their actions in returning at
>>least some Jewish hostages unharmed and unexterminated†, and their stated
>>intent to return more, if they’re allowed to.
>
>So why don't they just do it?
>
>>†Except the ones who were exterminated by their own side.
>
>Are you claiming that Israel deliberately murdered its own citizens?
>
>>> Israel's land, wealth and prosperity would be plundered ...
>>
>>Seems like the current widespread military callups are not exactly doing
>>wonders for Israel’s economy as it is.
>
>War is expensive and it is brutal. Israel did not start this conflict.
>What should they do, just roll over and take it?
>
>>> Can you see where this is going?
>>
>>Let’s just say, Netanyahu and his co-massacrists keep talking about a “day
>>after Hamas”, but I suspect that the “day after Netanyahu” will come
>>first.
>
>Netanyahu might well be defeated in the next election; that is the
>nature of a democracy. Gaza is run by brutal dictators and terrorists
>whose top brass live in luxury in Qatar hotels. They will never
>relinquish power and go quietly. They must be stopped.
>
>Bill.

On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 13:14:27 +1300, Rich80105 wrote:

>>>Democracy has to be secular,
> No it doesn't.

It is inherent in the idea that everybody counts equally. So you cannot
discriminate based on ethnicity or religion or whatever.

You would agree with the “ethnicity” bit at least, would you not? So why
not the “religion” bit?

>>>And democratic states do not subject people to arbitrary arrest,
>>>detention, torture and general harassment.
>
> A shining example being the USA? Remember the racism against Black
> people, remember prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. Remember the power of
> elected small town Sheriffs?

Given how low the USA scores on international measures of democracy and
press freedom, I think you are just reinforcing my point.

Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 08:37:20 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 21:29:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
>><ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 09:20:43 +1300, BR wrote:
>>>
>>>> You talk about that as if it was a bad thing.
>>>
>>>So it�s OK if Israel does it, but not OK if Palestine does it?
>>
>>If you had a choice between being ruled by an Israeli government or
>>any other government in the region, what would you choose? Palestine
>>is not and has never been a country. None of the surrounding countries
>>want anything to do with these "Palestinians", many of whom have been
>>kicked out of those countries because they won't put up with them,
>>preferring instead to make them Israel's problem.
>>>
>>>> The greater Israeli sovereignty there is, the more freedom there will be
>>>> under that sovereignty. Israel is a democracy, the only one in that part
>>>> of the world.
>>>
>>>It is a Jewish state, not a democratic state.
>>
>>Israel is the only functioning democracy in that part of the world.
>
>Democracy is not a term with a single interpretation:
>https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/12/israel-protests-judicial-curbs-supreme-court-challenge
>
>Look at the land distribution of Israel:
>https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/132121
>
>and then of New Zealand:
>https://teara.govt.nz/en/map/17888/maori-land-in-the-north-island-1860-1939
>
>(I presume there is an equivalent map for the South Island, but could
>not find it quickly)
>
>Being a Democracy is not a guarantee that all will be able to vote, or
>that each vote has the same effect, or that a country will not
>discriminate against minority groups, or of Freedom, however defined.
>
>>
>>>Democracy has to be secular,
>No it doesn't.
>
>>None of the surrounding Muslim governments are secular, so why pick on
>>Israel?
>>
>>>not based on any religion or ethnicity.
>>
>>There are Muslims in the Jewish Knesset.
>>
>>The people living in Gaza had an opportunity to form their own
>>democracy but they blew it when they elected Hamas in 2005. Big
>>mistake. However most of them are Muslims who have been taught to hate
>>Jews from an early age, so no surprises there.
>>
>>>And democratic states do not subject people to arbitrary arrest,
>>>detention, torture and general harassment.
>
>A shining example being the USA? Remember the racism against Black
>people, remember prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. Remember the power of
>elected small town Sheriffs?
>
>>Israel is in a war fighting for it's survival. When a country is at
>>war, the only thing that matters is winning. The welfare of the
>>enemy's citizens should not impede that mission. However, unlike
>>Hamas, killing civillians should not be the overriding objective, but
>>if they get in the way then too bad. Dictatorships like Hamas have no
>>problem placing their own citizens in the crossfire so that outfits
>>like Al Jazzera can whip up anti-Israel sentiment around the world.
>>Hamas alone are to blame for the suffering of the people of Gaza, but
>>if they really have the support of the majority of Gaza residents,
>>then the Gazans are the architects of their own misfortune.
>
>With every new government there will be a group of people who will be
>disappointed and surprised by what a new Government does - here in New
>Zealand for example very few would have been aware before the new
>NAct1st government was formed of the NZ First policy to reverse a law
>that was moving towards making New Zealand smoke-free.
Except that is a lie, once more. They are doing no such thing, and we (the sane
and honest) know it.
>
>>>> If Israel did to Hamas what Hamas would like to do to Israel, the Gaza
>>>> strip would be replaced by a hole in the gound.
>>>
>>>They�re already part of the way to achieving that.
>>
>>Hamas could stop the destruction at once by laying down their arms and
>>surrendering.
>>
>>>> If Hamas were to succeed in their stated intent and exterminate all the
>>>> Jews ...
>>>
>>>Feel free to point out where that is currently part of their stated
>>>intent.
>>
>>Go and read the Hamas charter. It's no secret and is easily accessible
>>online.
>>
>>>And how you reconcile that with their actions in returning at
>>>least some Jewish hostages unharmed and unexterminated�, and their stated
>>>intent to return more, if they�re allowed to.
>>
>>So why don't they just do it?
>>
>>>�Except the ones who were exterminated by their own side.
>>
>>Are you claiming that Israel deliberately murdered its own citizens?
>>
>>>> Israel's land, wealth and prosperity would be plundered ...
>>>
>>>Seems like the current widespread military callups are not exactly doing
>>>wonders for Israel�s economy as it is.
>>
>>War is expensive and it is brutal. Israel did not start this conflict.
>>What should they do, just roll over and take it?
>>
>>>> Can you see where this is going?
>>>
>>>Let�s just say, Netanyahu and his co-massacrists keep talking about a �day
>>>after Hamas�, but I suspect that the �day after Netanyahu� will come
>>>first.
>>
>>Netanyahu might well be defeated in the next election; that is the
>>nature of a democracy. Gaza is run by brutal dictators and terrorists
>>whose top brass live in luxury in Qatar hotels. They will never
>>relinquish power and go quietly. They must be stopped.
>>
>>Bill.

Not a report from Al J, but I think an illustrative example of how the
rest of NZ media views the conflict:
<https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/israel-hamas-war-israeli-inspections-slow-vital-aid-delivery-into-gaza-us-senators-say/LFLTZD4JE5FG7LKORZDQ5R3M3I/>.

When you hear about Western media minimizing the importance of
Palestinian casualties and suffering, somehow I don’t see that in our
local media. I see reports on what happens to both sides, as you would
expect from any reasonably competent media network.

By the way, it’s interesting that both the US Senators mentioned in
the above reports (I looked them up) are Democrats. Why didn’t the
Republicans send someone? Most likely because they just don’t want to
know.

On Sun, 7 Jan 2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
(mindless drivel)

Never take the side of people who want you dead.

On Mon, 08 Jan 2024 01:41:04 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

> Never take the side of people who want you dead.

Speaking of which:

“If the international media is objective, it serves Hamas. If it
just shows both sides, it serves Hamas.”
-- Yair Lapid

If you start believing that reality itself is part of a conspiracy against
you, then it is time to go curl up in a comfortable corner of that nice
padded cell and spend the rest of your life sucking your thumb.

On Mon, 08 Jan 2024 01:41:04 GMT, wn@qwert.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:

>On Sun, 7 Jan 2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>(mindless drivel)
>
>Never take the side of people who want you dead.
>
Has that been a problem for you, Willy Nilly?

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 20:23:22 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 08:37:20 +1300, BR wrote:
>
>> If you had a choice between being ruled by an Israeli government or any
>> other government in the region, what would you choose?
>
>Given that Israel would treat me about as badly as any of the others?

Really??

Israel is a western style democracy with regular elections and freedom
of expression. Try preaching the gospel or being openly homosexual in
any of the surrounding Islamic countries and see what you get.

>> Palestine is not and has never been a country. None of the surrounding
>> countries want anything to do with these "Palestinians" ...
>
>You frame it in such a bizarre way, as though Palestine’s neighbours would
>welcome its people being forced out of their own homes and land and onto
>theirs. We have a term for what is happening here: it’s called “ethnic
>cleansing”.

Israel doesn't want to kill them, they just want to be left in peace.

Many of the so-called Palestinians have been kicked out of the
surrounding countries because they are fanatical troublemakers who
teach their children to hate. Not that the surrounding countries are
paragons of freedom and prosperity either, but why the hell should
these reprobates be exclusively Israel's problem?

>> On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 21:29:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
>> <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>It is a Jewish state, not a democratic state.
>>
>> Israel is the only functioning democracy in that part of the world.
>
>Tell that to its Arab citizens, and to Palestinians living under its
>occupation. They don’t get to enjoy much, if any, of this “democracy”.

The people living in Gaza are the masters of their own destiny. Their
elected representatives had made their intentions clear. They voted to
be ruled by fanatics who want all Jews dead. For many years they have
been firing rockets into the rest of Israel, all aided and abetted by
the mullahs of Iran whose intentions are no different to those of
Hamas.

>(This one law for one group, a different law for a different group is the
>essence of “apartheid”.)
>
>>>Democracy has to be secular,
>>
>> None of the surrounding Muslim governments are secular, so why pick on
>> Israel?
>
>Because you said it: it claims to be the only “democracy” in the region.

I said it was the only functioning democracy in the region. One
election does not a democracy make. There is no Jewish version of
Sharia law. You speak as if the only legitimate parliament is one made
up exclusively of atheists.

>> There are Muslims in the Jewish Knesset.
>
>You mean the ones who were liable to get expelled?

No I did not mean that.

They are part of the Israeli government. There are many nationalities
including Arabs in Israel who are happy to live there and live in
peace with their fellow citizens. The Gaza residents are ruled by a
bunch of power hungry genocidal Islamic fanatics whom they were
foolish enough to elect. They are getting what they voted for.
>
>> The people living in Gaza had an opportunity to form their own democracy
>> but they blew it when they elected Hamas in 2005. Big mistake.
>
>Hamas won in a democratic election, like it or not. That was their choice
>at the time. You claim to be a “democracy”, yet you don’t seem to be so
>keen when others try to practise “democracy”.

A functioning democracy needs to have regular elections. The Gazans
voted themselves into tyranny in just one election. There's a lesson
in this. It is possible to vote away your right to vote. Be careful
who or what you vote for.

>> However most of them are Muslims who have been taught to hate Jews from
>> an early age, so no surprises there.
>
>You use their hatred of you as an excuse to inculcate more hatred in them.
>They use your hatred of them to inculcate more hatred in you. How long do
>you think this can go on?

I remember back in the 90s when the Islamic terrorists were planting
bombs on Israeli buses. Every time a bus was blown up, Israel would
retaliate with military strikes. One day a bus was bombed and Israel
said they would not retaliate that time in order to end the
tit-for-tat agression. The terrorists were given the opportunity to
end the bloodshed, but they ignored it and set off another bomb on a
bus. All the hate is on the part of the Islamic fanatics.

>>>And democratic states do not subject people to arbitrary arrest,
>>>detention, torture and general harassment.
>>
>> Israel is in a war fighting for it's survival. When a country is at war,
>> the only thing that matters is winning. The welfare of the enemy's
>> citizens should not impede that mission.
>
>“Citizens” of what? Just a little further back, you were claiming that
>“Palestine is not and has never been a country”. So what “country” is it,
>whose “citizens” are you fighting against?

Gaza is part of Israel. The "Palestinians" in Gaza were given a
measure of autonomy in 2005 and in 2006 an election was held which was
surprisingly won by Hamas. Gaza has never been an independent state.

>> Hamas could stop the destruction at once by laying down their arms and
>> surrendering.
>
>We saw what happened to unarmed people who tried to do that in Gaza:

Where did you see it?

>the Israeli soldiers shot them and killed them without a second thought. These
>weren’t even Palestinians, remember: they were Israeli hostages who had
>managed to free themselves.

So Israeli soldiers DELIBERATELY shot the hostages? Is that what you
were told?

>So this already proves the point, as though there was any doubt: the idea
>that Israel is not deliberately setting out to kill civilians is just
>nonsense.

Deliberately? What advantage would there be for them to do that?

>>>Feel free to point out where that is currently part of their stated
>>>intent.
>>
>> Go and read the Hamas charter. It's no secret and is easily accessible
>> online.
>
>There are two versions of that. Let’s just say, the current one doesn’t
>seem to be quite as strident on that point as the position of some parties
>in the current Israeli government.

OK, so they've updated it and watered it down for propaganda purposes.
Only a fool would believe that their mission has changed. October the
7th is proof of that.

>>> Except the ones who were exterminated by their own side.
>>
>> Are you claiming that Israel deliberately murdered its own citizens?
>
>Yes. Besides the above case, there was an incident recently in the West
>Bank as well, where an armed Israeli tried to help with a fight against
>some Palestinians, and got killed by his own side for his efforts.

There was an incident where a bomb was dropped on a hospital that
killed around 500 civilians. That's what the media reports were saying
shortly after it happened. It turned out that the bomb was a Hamas
rocket that had malfunctioned and had hit an adjacent carpark.

In any war there are always going to be mistakes made on both sides.
Of course, the likes of Al Jazzera will megaphone any errors made by
Israel and ignore the rocket launchers and arms depots placed in
hospitals and schools by Hamas for the express purpose of painting
Israel as the bad guy, and without any regard to their own civillian
victims whom they conveniently define as martyrs.

>> War is expensive and it is brutal. Israel did not start this conflict.
>> What should they do, just roll over and take it?
>
>At some point they have to recognize that their adversary has its own
>right to exist.

Maybe they should go and exist somewhere else other than in Israel.
There is plenty of unused land in Iran which already has the Sharia
law they so desparately crave. How about Israel's right to exist? It
has to cut both ways. Israel says: "Let's do a deal". Hamas says: "We
want you all dead". Gaza was given it's autonomy and the current
situation is what it has led to. So much for any two state solution.
The Jews are not going to commit suicide so that hordes of Islamic
fanatics can plunder and fight over what's left of their nation.

Bill.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com