https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350232881/impossible-tell-if-boy-died-covid-19-vaccine-or-virus-says-coroner

Perhaps not for this teenager, but the ability for the main stream media to
report the subject is some detail.

On 2 Apr 2024 22:40:53 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
>https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350232881/impossible-tell-if-boy-died-covid-19-vaccine-or-virus-says-coroner
>>Perhaps not for this teenager, but the ability for the main stream media to
>report the subject is some detail.

Also see:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/513341/8000-unvaccinated-or-partly-vaccinated-health-workers-were-allowed-to-keep-working
which doesn't say anything massively new, but the numerical breakdowns
of the unvaccinated by medical profession is interesting.

Also there is the usual total BS from Michael Baker who claims that
20,000 lives were saved by the Covid vaccines -- utter horseshit -- if
that were true, then we would have about 2,000 unvaccinated dead of
covid since the population was vaccinated in 2021. But of course,
nothing of the sort happened. When will the media ever perform some
actual analysis of the misinformation spouted by the likes of Baker?

On Wed, 03 Apr 2024 05:48:11 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:

>On 2 Apr 2024 22:40:53 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
>>https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350232881/impossible-tell-if-boy-died-covid-19-vaccine-or-virus-says-coroner
>>>Perhaps not for this teenager, but the ability for the main stream media to
>>report the subject is some detail.
>
>Also see:
>https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/513341/8000-unvaccinated-or-partly-vaccinated-health-workers-were-allowed-to-keep-working
>which doesn't say anything massively new, but the numerical breakdowns
>of the unvaccinated by medical profession is interesting.
>
>Also there is the usual total BS from Michael Baker who claims that
>20,000 lives were saved by the Covid vaccines -- utter horseshit -- if
>that were true, then we would have about 2,000 unvaccinated dead of
>covid since the population was vaccinated in 2021. But of course,
>nothing of the sort happened. When will the media ever perform some
>actual analysis of the misinformation spouted by the likes of Baker?
>

First Baker claims that we saved 20,000 lives through the whole Covid
response - not just through the vaccine. It can be justified in a
number of ways, but the clearest is to compare what happened to
expected deaths over the period compared with other countries.
See:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=chart&facet=none&country=OWID_WRL~USA~BRA~NZL~GBR~AUS~NOR~SWE~CAN

So choose the date at which you want to finish the cumulative data,
take the difference between the rate for New Zealand, and the rate for
another country, and apply that difference to our population - for New
Zealand compared to sat the UK or USA it will work out to about 22,000
deaths, compared to the world results we are a little better, but I
don't trust the World results. So 20,000 is probably a it
conservative. Note that for a considerable period we actually had
lower deaths than we would have expected based on previous mortality
rates - that was because we did not lose a lot of old people to
influenza, had a lot fewer road deaths, but the big difference was due
to our response to Covid, with the vaccine being a big part of that.
There are a lot of people that did not have all the vaccines - we did
not have 100% coverage in 2021 - but those not vaccinated were often
partly protected by those around them being vaccinated, so the virus
did not run rampant through their community. We are now finding out
that teachers were particularly vulnerable - children do not keep
apart, and while they may not have been sick themselves did pass on
the virus to teachers, even if they had been vaccinated - did you
realise that the vaccine was not 100% effective?

How would you measure the number of lives saved, Willy Nilly?

On Wed, 03 Apr 2024, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 03 Apr 2024 05:48:11 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:
>>https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/513341/8000-unvaccinated-or-partly-vaccinated-health-workers-were-allowed-to-keep-working
>>Also there is the usual total BS from Michael Baker who claims that
>>20,000 lives were saved by the Covid vaccines -- utter horseshit -- if
>>that were true, then we would have about 2,000 unvaccinated dead of
>>covid since the population was vaccinated in 2021. But of course,
>>nothing of the sort happened. When will the media ever perform some
>>actual analysis of the misinformation spouted by the likes of Baker?
>
>First Baker claims that we saved 20,000 lives through the whole Covid
>response - not just through the vaccine.

Just another of your cheap lies, Rich, the Baker quote is:
"No-one sees those lives saved, those 20,000 New Zealanders who didn't
die because of vaccination."

> It can be justified in a number of ways, but ...

No it can't, and you go on to spout your usual worthless nonsense.

>How would you measure the number of lives saved, Willy Nilly?

The vaccine only killed. Were some elderly given a few more years
before they died their natural death? If so, it was massively
counterbalanced by all the young deaths, and all those people who are
still dying today from the after effects -- the microclots remaining
in the blood and throughout the body, the heart damage, the incipient
strokes, the sterilisation caused by spike proteins attacking the
ovaries -- the covid vaccine is the worst medical crime in history.

The young have had their life expectencies greatly reduced because
their compromised hearts or brain embolisms will fail when they are in
their 50's. This means you, Rich. Enjoy your ticking time bomb.

On Wed, 03 Apr 2024 19:37:21 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:

>On Wed, 03 Apr 2024, Rich80105 <Rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>On Wed, 03 Apr 2024 05:48:11 GMT, wn@nosuch.com (Willy Nilly) wrote:
>>>https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/513341/8000-unvaccinated-or-partly-vaccinated-health-workers-were-allowed-to-keep-working
>>>Also there is the usual total BS from Michael Baker who claims that
>>>20,000 lives were saved by the Covid vaccines -- utter horseshit -- if
>>>that were true, then we would have about 2,000 unvaccinated dead of
>>>covid since the population was vaccinated in 2021. But of course,
>>>nothing of the sort happened. When will the media ever perform some
>>>actual analysis of the misinformation spouted by the likes of Baker?
>>
>>First Baker claims that we saved 20,000 lives through the whole Covid
>>response - not just through the vaccine.
>
>Just another of your cheap lies, Rich, the Baker quote is:
>"No-one sees those lives saved, those 20,000 New Zealanders who didn't
>die because of vaccination."
The full quote is:
"The anti-vax group has grown a lot in New Zealand, and I think it's
been driven by really appalling misinformation."

The problem with a successful public health strategy was "nothing
happens", he said.

"No-one sees those lives saved, those 20,000 New Zealanders who didn't
die because of vaccination."

The mandates were a curb on people's freedoms - but it was always "a
trade-off", he continued.

"We didn't have compulsory vaccination as some countries had.
Certainly there was a lot of pressure to get vaccinated if you stood
to lose your job if you didn't, so that was coercive.

"But you have to balance it against lives saved, reduced
hospitalisations and fewer people getting long Covid."

Baker has spoken a number of times, and made the point that
vaccination was not the only response - a look at the evidence that I
posted shows that there was lowered levels of mortality in New Zealand
prior to the vaccine becoming available.

>
>> It can be justified in a number of ways, but ...
>
>No it can't, and you go on to spout your usual worthless nonsense.

You seem to have caught the Tony disease of deleting previous posts
that you are unable to adequately argue against. Here it is again:

First Baker claims that we saved 20,000 lives through the whole Covid
response - not just through the vaccine. It can be justified in a
number of ways, but the clearest is to compare what happened to
expected deaths over the period compared with other countries.
See:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-deaths-cumulative-per-100k-economist?tab=chart&facet=none&country=OWID_WRL~USA~BRA~NZL~GBR~AUS~NOR~SWE~CAN

So choose the date at which you want to finish the cumulative data,
take the difference between the rate for New Zealand, and the rate for
another country, and apply that difference to our population - for New
Zealand compared to sat the UK or USA it will work out to about 22,000
deaths, compared to the world results we are a little better, but I
don't trust the World results. So 20,000 is probably a it
conservative. Note that for a considerable period we actually had
lower deaths than we would have expected based on previous mortality
rates - that was because we did not lose a lot of old people to
influenza, had a lot fewer road deaths, but the big difference was due
to our response to Covid, with the vaccine being a big part of that.
There are a lot of people that did not have all the vaccines - we did
not have 100% coverage in 2021 - but those not vaccinated were often
partly protected by those around them being vaccinated, so the virus
did not run rampant through their community. We are now finding out
that teachers were particularly vulnerable - children do not keep
apart, and while they may not have been sick themselves did pass on
the virus to teachers, even if they had been vaccinated - did you
realise that the vaccine was not 100% effective?

How would you measure the number of lives saved, Willy Nilly?

>
>>How would you measure the number of lives saved, Willy Nilly?
I note that you have not even tried to answer that question . . . it
is all there in the scientific work of the international comparisons .
.. .

>
>The vaccine only killed.
What rubbish - or is that just part of what Baker described as :
"The anti-vax group has grown a lot in New Zealand, and I think it's
been driven by really appalling misinformation."

>Were some elderly given a few more years
>before they died their natural death? If so, it was massively
>counterbalanced by all the young deaths, and all those people who are
>still dying today from the after effects -- the microclots remaining
>in the blood and throughout the body, the heart damage, the incipient
>strokes, the sterilisation caused by spike proteins attacking the
>ovaries -- the covid vaccine is the worst medical crime in history.
Do you have any evidence for these assertions - or they part of what
Baker called misinformation?

Certainly you are wrong - see:
https://www.tewhatuora.govt.nz/our-health-system/data-and-statistics/covid-19-data/covid-19-case-demographics/#age-and-ethnicity-of-deaths-where-covid-19-is-officially-coded-as-the-underlying-cause
from which: Age of deaths where COVID-19 is officially coded as the
underlying cause
Age Group Total
0 to 59 97
50 to 69 161
70 to 79 469
80 to 89 940
90+ 795
Total 2,462

>
>The young have had their life expectencies greatly reduced because
>their compromised hearts or brain embolisms will fail when they are in
>their 50's. This means you, Rich. Enjoy your ticking time bomb.

On Wed, 03 Apr 2024 19:37:21 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

> The vaccine only killed.

That’s an example of what’s called “circular reasoning”. This is where you
try to refute the other person’s argument by assuming yours is correct to
begin with.

That doesn’t work.